Return-Path: Received: from avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.121.50]) by srv1.acenet.com.au (8.11.1/8.11.1) with ESMTP id f04E75Y21125 for ; Fri, 5 Jan 2001 01:07:05 +1100 Received: from earthlink.net (dialup-63.212.191.217.Miami1.Level3.net [63.212.191.217]) by avocet.prod.itd.earthlink.net (EL-8_9_3_3/8.9.3) with SMTP id GAA15921 for ; Thu, 4 Jan 2001 06:06:20 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <41200114414319260@earthlink.net> X-EM-Version: 5, 0, 0, 0 X-EM-Registration: #3003520714B31D032830 X-Priority: Reply-To: tjdri@earthlink.net X-Mailer: EarthLink MailBox 5.03.42 (Windows) From: "Thomas Dobson" To: "John Zube" Subject: Re: Question re Your Web Site legal tender & lawful money Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 9:3:19 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8" X-UIDL: 0cB!!`L'#!FKV"!W,A"! ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Mr. Zube Title 12 of the U.S.Code is the Section on the Federal Reserve (the 3rd National Bank of the USA.) One section, and at this moment I am unable to recall the section, says with specificity that Lawful Money is Gold and Silver Coin. In the early 50's I went West to Seattle, Wash. for further westward shipment by the US Government in order to get to the Far East. In those days, Silver Dollars (Morgans) were common on the West Coast and never seen in the East. I remember that they used to pull my uniform down around my knees from the weight. Paper Money was identified as "Silver Certificates." I mention the above just to point out that in my lifetime we did have a precious metal backing for our currency. Of course, I did not realize that the Federal Reserve is merely a 'cartel' for the benefit of a few world citizens and how ignorant I and the vast majority of the population were and are regarding 'money' and 'notes as fiat money' and how we the people have been deceived. In any event, in the U.S.A. today a debt can only be discharged and not paid since Federal Reserve Notes are not money but merely evidence of debt which is discharged too someone else when a purchase is allegedly paid in full. If you are able to get to the Search Engine 'Google' try 'Fiat Paper Money AND Edwin Viera' who is a Lawyer and Economist, Harvard, Harvard, Harvard, and Harvard. If you do not already know of him you'll find he is surely one of the most knowledgeable of all who are writing and lecturing on the 'Money' situation in this country and the world today. Best to You and Yours. ----- Original Message ----- From: John Zube To: tjdri@earthlink.net Sent: 1/4/01 4:55:36 AM Subject: Re: Question re Your Web Site legal tender lawful money Dear Thomas Dobson, the question you put is not so much one regarding my website but just regarding one term, "legal tender", as opposed to the one which you seem to prefer: "lawful money". In my booklet on legal tender, appended to my literature list in my website, I gave about 19 different definitions of legal tender. I am certain that many more do exist. (To publish a comprehensive list, pointing out the errors in each of the faulty wordings, is one of my aims. Likewise, a full discussion of GRESHAM'S LAW and of TAX FOUNDATION and of PAPER MONEY, and of EXCHANGE MEDIA of VALUE STANDARDS. All too many simply equate "legal tender" with "lawful money", not even taking into consideration that e.g. cheques, although not legal tender, are also a lawful means of payment and so is any form of clearing that the authorities do permit. Nor are legally not permitted payments that do satisfy payer and payee in any sensible and moral way "lawless" payments. Any legal tender money is rather "lawless" money in the best meaning of "law". Nobody who tries to declare what is "lawful" money, has the right to prescribe to dissenters what they are to consider among themselves as their currency and their value standard. Freedom of choice for both, regardless of what territorial constitutionalists and lawmakers consider to be the ideal kind of currency and value standard. One can get the clearest insight on what constitutes money, currencies, value standards, clearing, credit, debt, etc., if one considers a situation, even if merely as a thought game, in which not a single law, regulation, constitutional clause or juridical decision on such subjects exists at all and all these facilities have to be developed by free people, who do not want to go on with the "benefits" of monetary despotism that have come upon them. I experienced two regimes, that legalized their oppression and atrocities, so "lawful" is not excactlly a term that inspires me. Nor did I gain a great respect for the avalanches of laws, regulations and administrative orders that democracies and republics, with more or less free voting and expression and information, have passed over the 2 centuries. As for the U.S. case: What you and the constitution meant to be the only "lawful money" has been largely ignored or suppressed during and after the American Revolution. In 1990 and 1991 I spent most of a year in the U.S. and never saw "lawful money" in your meaning. All I saw was examples of the imposition of monetary despotism, practised for all too long, in spite of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and Supreme Court decisions - or, BECAUSE of them! Even Washington was not without blame in this respect. He paid his troops off only after sending them first into a distant wilderness or place and then offered them only a depreciated paper money at a forced value, foreseeing that in these places and in their conditions they would then hardly mutiny against this abuse. But from his tenants he demanded payment in gold, while he paid his debts in depreciated paper! Where IS your lawful money? Only in some underground exchanges or attempts to establish e-gold systems etc. I do not care whether some laws do nominally respect what you consider to be the only "lawful" money. In practice, the overwhelming consent of the lawmakers and interpreters has decided against it. Thus nothing less but a monetary revolution will be required to get out from under monetary despotism. Such a revolution can be quite non-violently executed but it needs much educational preparation. Towards this aim I published as much as I could on monetary freedom, probably more than any other individual ever did before and will continue to do so, although so far mainly only on microfiche. Under full monetary freedom the adherents of metal commodity money will get their chance, too. But they will have to be able to stand the competition from other privately and cooperatively issued local and other currencies that do not promise e.g. gold or silver metal redemption but merely readiness to accept these notes, at par, for the goods and services of the issuer and in all debts due to him. However, many of these issuers will denominate their notes and clearing house certificates e.g. in gold or silver weight units, and price their goods and services in such units, without promising more than acceptance at par with the stated metal values for all their goods and services. Free choice in value standards will come to prevail, sooner or later, despite the despotic inclinations of most money reformers. A gold clearing or gold-for-account currency is in theory and in practice a much sounder currency than any that depends upon gold stocks of the issuer and gold redemption obligations of them, combined with the right of the note holders to demand gold redemption upon presentation of their gold certificates. The discussion on this has been going on for over 200 years and has not yet been settled to general satisfaction. Popular errors and myths on the subject, centuries old, still prevail, even among most of the academic writings of libertarians during the last quarter of a century. The monetary sectarians and church members still far outnumer the genuine monetary scientists, even among the leading libertarian economists! Under full monetary freedom, for gold value clearing notes and certificates and accounts, rare metal redemption, to the extent that holders desire it, will be referred to the free market in such metals. Consequently, all the rare metals in the world will, potentially, act as a "redemption fund". One of the preconditions for enlightenment on monetary freedom options will be an alphabetized handbook on its terms, theories, practices, history and future potential. I have long wanted to compile such a handbook, largely based on the teachings of the German School of Monetary Freedom, but, unfortunately, even trying to popularize something as simply as the freedom of expression and information opportunities that microfiche do offer to freedom lovers, has taken most of my time and energy during the last 23 years. Presently, I try, so far still in vain, too, to interest enough libertarians in using CD-ROMs for their writings, towards a complete freedom library and publishing service. One CD-ROM, whose blank and pressing costs are down to 50 Australian cents, can contain 300 to 2,000 libertarian books, zipped, and yet libertarians have still left them largely unused, although a mere 300 of these disks, or ca. 40 CVDs, could, perhaps, contain a complete freedom library and probably no freedom lover would have time in his life to read more than the contents of 10 such disks, which could be marketed probably for as little as $ 5 - 50 each. This in spite of the fact that music, software and games lovers have provided tenthousands, if not hundredthousands of CD-ROMs for themselves. Libertarians have largely ignored their microfiche, their floppy disk and also their CD-ROM publishing for what is supposedly their favourite literature. Would they rather let the case for liberty be forfeited than resort to such alternative media??? And do not try to tell me that the Internet, like God or father State, will provide. I got active in promoting CD-ROMs, once again, after I experienced that downloading from the Internet, to fill a single CD-ROM, would have cost me 400 hours of hard and boring labour and ca. $ A 1,200 in connection fees, while the burning of a single CD-ROM, on a simple home PC, IF the text is already digitized for this on a HD, would take only all of 15 minutes! Here is one of the greatest educational opportunities for our times - remaining largely unused. In about 45 days I have so far gained only 30 people in favour of this idea. Hopefully, John Humphrey's new website on a LIBERTARIAN LIBRARY, only just started, will speed the process up. It links to two of my early papers on this subject. The list of interested people these links contain is dated. www.geocities.com/libertarian_library/ Possibly all monetary freedom writings would fit onto a single CD-ROM or two - production costs 50cents! - once the texts are digitized. And monetary reformers, between them, should be able to manage to digitize all such texts, with each participant concentrating on his favourite ones, to the extent that he has access to them, indivision of labour with others interested in the same texts. What one person cannot tackle and complete on his own, the international freedom movement people should be able to accomplish rather fast, once they properly organize themselves and connect for this purpose, dividing the labour involved. Then questions like yours will be settled more or less authoritatively, sooner or later, in corresponding reference works. Monetary freedom means PIOT in the monetary sphere: To each the exchange medium and value standard of his or her dreams! PIOT, John Zube. ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas Dobson To: jzube@acenet.com.au Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 10:10 AM Subject: Question re Your Web Site Question- Lawful Money in the USA is Gold and Silver Coin. Which is the stronger...Lawful Money or Legal Tender. That is the difficult question. Title 12 U.S.Code defines Lawful Money as Silver and Gold. It would seem that Lawful is the stronger word. Just speculating while reading your web site. Best to You and Yours. --- tjdri@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. --- tjdri@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ------=_NextPart_84815C5ABAF209EF376268C8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Mr. Zube
 
Title 12 of the U.S.Code is the Section on the Federal Reserve (the 3rd National Bank of the USA.) One section, and at this moment I am unable to recall the section, says with specificity that Lawful Money is Gold and Silver Coin. In the early 50's I went West to Seattle, Wash. for further westward shipment by the US Government in order to get to the Far East. In those days, Silver Dollars (Morgans) were common on the West Coast and never seen in the East. I remember that they used to pull my uniform down around my knees from the weight. Paper Money was identified as "Silver Certificates." I mention the above just to point out that in my lifetime we did have a precious metal backing for our currency. Of course, I did not realize that the Federal Reserve is merely a 'cartel' for the benefit of a few world citizens and how ignorant I and the vast majority of the population were and are regarding 'money' and 'notes as fiat money' and how we the people have been deceived. In ! any event, in the U.S.A. today a debt can only be discharged and not paid since Federal Reserve Notes are not money but merely evidence of debt which is discharged too someone else when a purchase is allegedly paid in full. If you are able to get to the Search Engine 'Google' try 'Fiat Paper Money AND Edwin Viera' who is a Lawyer and Economist, Harvard, Harvard, Harvard, and Harvard. If you do not already know of him you'll find he is surely one of the most knowledgeable of all who are writing and lecturing on the 'Money' situation in this country and the world today. Best to You and Yours.
----- Original Message -----
From: John Zube
Sent: 1/4/01 4:55:36 AM
Subject: Re: Question re Your Web Site legal tender & lawful money

Dear Thomas Dobson,
                                  the question you put is not so much one regarding my website but just regarding one term, "legal tender", as opposed to the one which you seem to prefer: "lawful money".
In my booklet on legal tender, appended to my literature list in my website, I gave about 19 different definitions of legal tender. I am certain that many more do exist. (To publish a comprehensive list, pointing out the errors in each of the faulty wordings, is one of my aims. Likewise, a full discussion of GRESHAM'S LAW and of TAX FOUNDATION and of PAPER MONEY, and of EXCHANGE MEDIA & of VALUE STANDARDS.
All too many simply equate "legal tender" with "lawful money", not even taking into consideration that e.g. cheques, although not legal tender, are also a lawful means of payment and so is any form of clearing that the authorities do permit. Nor are legally not permitted payments that do satisfy payer and payee in any sensible and moral way "lawless" payments.
 
Any legal tender money is rather "lawless" money in the best meaning of "law".
 
Nobody who tries to declare what is "lawful" money, has the right to prescribe to dissenters what they are to consider among themselves as their currency and their value standard. Freedom of choice for both, regardless of what territorial constitutionalists and lawmakers consider to be the ideal kind of currency and value standard.
 
One can get the clearest insight on what constitutes money, currencies, value standards, clearing, credit, debt, etc., if one considers a situation, even if merely as a thought game, in which not a single law, regulation, constitutional clause or juridical decision on such subjects exists at all and all these facilities have to be developed by free people, who do not want to go on with the "benefits" of monetary despotism that have come upon them.
 
I experienced two regimes, that legalized their oppression and atrocities, so "lawful" is not excactlly a term that inspires me.
Nor did I gain a great respect for the avalanches of laws, regulations and administrative orders that democracies and republics, with more or less free voting and expression and information, have passed over the 2 centuries.
 
As for the U.S. case: What you and the constitution meant to be the only "lawful money" has been largely ignored or suppressed during and after the American Revolution. In 1990 and 1991 I spent most of a year in the U.S. and never saw "lawful money" in your meaning. All I saw was examples of the imposition of monetary despotism, practised for all too long, in spite of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and Supreme Court decisions - or, BECAUSE of them!
Even Washington was not without blame in this respect. He paid his troops off only after sending them first into a distant wilderness or place and then offered them only a depreciated paper money at a forced value, foreseeing that in these places and in their conditions they would then hardly mutiny against this abuse. But from his tenants he demanded payment in gold, while he paid his debts in depreciated paper!
Where IS your lawful money? Only in some underground exchanges or attempts to establish e-gold systems etc.
 
I do not care whether some laws do nominally respect what you consider to be the only "lawful" money. In practice, the overwhelming consent of the lawmakers and interpreters has decided against it. Thus nothing less but a monetary revolution will be required to get out from under monetary despotism.
Such a revolution can be quite non-violently executed but it needs much educational preparation.
Towards this aim I published as much as I could on monetary freedom, probably more than any other individual ever did before and will continue to do so, although so far mainly only on microfiche.
 
Under full monetary freedom the adherents of metal commodity money will get their chance, too. But they will have to be able to stand the competition from other privately and cooperatively issued local and other currencies that do not promise e.g. gold or silver metal redemption but merely readiness to accept these notes, at par, for the goods and services of the issuer and in all debts due to him.
However, many of these issuers will denominate their notes and clearing house certificates e.g. in gold or silver weight units, and price their goods and services in such units, without promising more than acceptance at par with the stated metal values for all their goods and services.
Free choice in value standards will come to prevail, sooner or later, despite the despotic inclinations of most money reformers.
A gold clearing or gold-for-account currency is in theory and in practice a much sounder currency than any that depends upon gold stocks of the issuer and gold redemption obligations of them, combined with the right of the note holders to demand gold redemption upon presentation of their gold certificates.
The discussion on this has been going on for over 200 years and has not yet been settled to general satisfaction. Popular errors and myths on the subject, centuries old, still prevail, even among most of the academic writings of libertarians during the last quarter of a century. The monetary sectarians and church members still far outnumer the genuine monetary scientists, even among the leading libertarian economists!
 
Under full monetary freedom, for gold value clearing notes and certificates and accounts, rare metal redemption, to the extent that holders desire it, will be referred to the free market in such metals. Consequently, all the rare metals in the world will, potentially, act as a "redemption fund".
 
One of the preconditions for enlightenment on monetary freedom options will be an alphabetized handbook on its terms, theories, practices, history and future potential. I have long wanted to compile such a handbook, largely based on the teachings of the German School of Monetary Freedom, but, unfortunately, even trying to popularize something as simply as the freedom of expression and information opportunities that microfiche do offer to freedom lovers, has taken most of my time and energy during the last 23 years. Presently, I try, so far still in vain, too, to interest enough libertarians in using CD-ROMs for their writings, towards a complete freedom library and publishing service.
 
One CD-ROM, whose blank and pressing costs are down to 50 Australian cents, can contain 300 to 2,000 libertarian books, zipped, and yet libertarians have still left them largely unused, although a mere 300 of these disks, or ca. 40 CVDs, could, perhaps, contain a complete freedom library and probably no freedom lover would have time in his life to read more than the contents of 10 such disks, which could be marketed probably for as little as $ 5 - 50 each.
This in spite of the fact that music, software and games lovers have provided tenthousands, if not hundredthousands of CD-ROMs for themselves.
Libertarians have largely ignored their microfiche, their floppy disk and also their CD-ROM publishing for what is supposedly their favourite literature.
Would they rather let the case for liberty be forfeited than resort to such alternative media???
 
And do not try to tell me that the Internet, like God or father State, will provide.
I got active in promoting CD-ROMs, once again, after I experienced that downloading from the Internet, to fill a single CD-ROM, would have cost me 400 hours of hard and boring labour and ca. $ A 1,200 in connection fees, while the burning of a single CD-ROM, on a simple home PC, IF the text is already digitized for this on a HD, would take only all of 15 minutes!
 
Here is one of the greatest educational opportunities for our times - remaining largely unused. In about 45 days I have so far gained only 30 people in favour of this idea. Hopefully, John Humphrey's new website on a LIBERTARIAN LIBRARY, only just started, will speed the process up. It links to two of my early papers on this subject. The list of interested people these links contain is  dated.
 
Possibly all monetary freedom writings would fit onto a single CD-ROM or two - production costs 50cents! - once the texts are digitized. And monetary reformers, between them, should be able to manage to digitize all such texts, with each participant concentrating on his favourite ones, to the extent that he has access to them, indivision of labour with others interested in the same texts.
What one person cannot tackle and complete on his own, the international freedom movement people should be able to accomplish rather fast, once they properly organize themselves and connect for this purpose, dividing the labour involved.
 
Then questions like yours will be settled more or less authoritatively, sooner or later, in corresponding reference works.
 
Monetary freedom means PIOT in the monetary sphere: To each the exchange medium and value standard of his or her dreams!
 
PIOT, John Zube.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 10:10 AM
Subject: Question re Your Web Site

Question- Lawful Money in the USA is Gold and Silver Coin. Which is the stronger...Lawful Money or Legal Tender. That is the difficult question. Title 12 U.S.Code defines Lawful Money as Silver and Gold. It would seem that Lawful is the stronger word. Just speculating while reading your web site. Best to You and Yours.
 
 
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

 
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 
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