From: "Thomas H. Greco, Jr." To: "Zube John" Subject: Fw: NORFED Date: Saturday, 20 December 2003 4:20 AM Re: NORFEDDear John, Here is a recent exchange of correspondence with some NORFED people that may interest you. You may want to include it in your archives, and as far as I'm concerned, you are welcome to. If you delete the distribution lists and names of the others, they could not object. Regards, Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas H. Greco, Jr. To: jason@austinsilver.com ; Peter J Sullivan ; Tom O'Neill Cc: Bernard von NotHaus ; Dr. Larry Parks ; Dave Dobbins ; Mike Keesler ; Mike Aldana ; Dave Callahan ; Jan Blum ; Ralph Mastrangelo ; Ralph "Corky" Matson ; Thoren ; Russ Hicks ; Shakira Abdul-Ali ; Allen Aslan Heart ; John & Pat Harman ; Gerry Gouthro ; G. Edward Griffin ; Al Manduley ; Al Micesetti ; Marty Jezer ; Rick Nelson ; Barak ; Eric Kreig ; Kris Book ; Vida Dubinsky ; Christal Elane ; Ed Kolankowski ; Ron & Vicki Linker ; Sarah Bledsoe ; Pastor Mark McGrath ; Pastor Charles Spradlin ; Niamo Mu'id ; Nancy Schmidt Markstrom Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2003 2:58 PM Subject: Re: NORFED Jason, The denationalization of money, the separation of money and state are urgently needed. But don't expect the politicians to do the right thing. The answers will have to come from free people exercising their rights. The main problems are: Lack of an objective, non-political unit of account, and Legal tender status for FED-created money. The unit of measure of value and the means of payment are two different things. The former is a measure, like an inch or a pound; the latter is either a commodity or an i.o.u. Free people can voluntarily choose to use their own accounting unit in dealings among themselves. A particular weight of silver or gold would be better than an undefined, manipulated (currency) dollar -- like the U.S. dollar (monetary unit) was originally defined as 371.25 grains of fine silver. A unit based on a specified assortment of basic commodities would be better. In any case, using a silver or gold unit of account does not mean that payment must be made in silver or gold. Rather, if a dollar is defined as so much silver, and I owe you 100 dollars, that does not necessarily mean that you can demand payment in silver. It just means that I owe you 100 dollars WORTH (of something). Credit money can be perfectly sound if properly issued on an adequate value foundation, like goods in the shops or on their way to market. But since it is an i.o.u., the market must be free to refuse it or discount it. Only the issuer should be compelled to accept his own currency at face value (par). Again, goods and services pay for other goods and service. We just need an honest measure, and freedom. Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: jason@austinsilver.com To: Thomas H. Greco, Jr. ; Peter J Sullivan ; Tom O'Neill Cc: Bernard von NotHaus ; Dr. Larry Parks ; Dave Dobbins ; Mike Keesler ; Mike Aldana ; Dave Callahan ; Jan Blum ; Ralph Mastrangelo ; Ralph "Corky" Matson ; Thoren ; Russ Hicks ; Shakira Abdul-Ali ; Allen Aslan Heart ; John & Pat Harman ; Gerry Gouthro ; G. Edward Griffin ; Al Manduley ; Al Micesetti ; Marty Jezer ; Rick Nelson ; Barak ; Eric Kreig ; Kris Book ; Vida Dubinsky ; Christal Elane ; Ed Kolankowski ; Ron & Vicki Linker ; Sarah Bledsoe ; Pastor Mark McGrath ; Pastor Charles Spradlin ; Niamo Mu'id ; Nancy Schmidt Markstrom Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:46 PM Subject: Re: NORFED Hello all, Tom, you and I see eye to eye. I loved your book "Money:Creating Alternatives..." (especially the beginning) and have given several copies away for people to read. I agree that there's nothing wrong with credit money per se, with LETS or mutual credit systems. There's no more a perfect money than there is a perfect car (I'm reminded of the debates that go around on the auto enthusiasts' newsgroups - "The 280z was clearly better than the Camaro" and so forth.) Different people drive different cars at different times when they have different needs -- trucks, vans, minivans, SUVs, coupes, sedans, and motorcycles all serve market niches. von Hayek also called for the denationalisation of money, which would create a competitive market in means of exchange. This is sorely needed. Those of use who are out here raging for gold money are trying first to limit the *government* to only using gold money. This was what the framers of the U.S. Constitution had in mind as a way to stop the abuse by government of credit. In that way, gold is unique as a tool to control government, and simultaneously ensure freedom. Free people, on the other hand, can and should all means of exchange available to them. Jason ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas H. Greco, Jr. To: jason@austinsilver.com ; Peter J Sullivan ; Tom O'Neill Cc: Bernard von NotHaus ; Dr. Larry Parks ; Dave Dobbins ; Mike Keesler ; Mike Aldana ; Dave Callahan ; Jan Blum ; Ralph Mastrangelo ; Ralph "Corky" Matson ; Thoren ; Russ Hicks ; Shakira Abdul-Ali ; Allen Aslan Heart ; John & Pat Harman ; Gerry Gouthro ; G. Edward Griffin ; Al Manduley ; Al Micesetti ; Marty Jezer ; Rick Nelson ; Barak ; Eric Kreig ; Kris Book ; Vida Dubinsky ; Christal Elane ; Ed Kolankowski ; Ron & Vicki Linker ; Sarah Bledsoe ; Pastor Mark McGrath ; Pastor Charles Spradlin ; Niamo Mu'id ; Nancy Schmidt Markstrom Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 12:36 PM Subject: Re: NORFED Jason, In regard to your P.S., the word "primitive" means "pertaining to an earliest or original stage [of development]." Comparing gold and silver to art, emotion, and sex, as you do, is to misuse the word. In any case, my use of the word in relation to money implies no value judgment, just my view of the historical evolution of money, and I might add, a belief that the more evolved forms are more APPROPRIATE to the goals of personal freedom, social justice, peace, harmony, and economic equity. In a similar vein, Tom O'Neill said, "I took the time to read through your website and was already somewhat familiar with LETS and other community credit systems. I agree with the spirit behind these initiatives, but would have to disagree that commodity based money is somehow more "primitive" than a credit-based trade system. Ultimately, the "credits" have to be redeemable for physical goods or services, which would seem to make them a supplemental derivative of commodity money...would it not? My answer is this: I have no gold or silver. What I do have to offer to the market is goods and services. You, likewise, probably have no gold or silver, but offer other goods and services to the market. Ultimately, we each pay for the things we buy with the things we sell. In other words, goods and services buy other goods and services. The problem then becomes, how do we transcend the barter limitation, i.e., the "double coincidence" of wants or needs. Sure, we can use some commodities that are in general demand as an intermediary, like gold or silver, or, as was common in early post-war Europe, cigarettes, Hershey bars, and nylon stocking. But it is much more efficient to simply sell to one another on credit, and then spend our credits to requisition whatever we may want from the market. The supply of any chosen commodity (like gold or silver) is limited and most of the gold and silver is closely held by those who run the system, the central governments and central banks. They decide the price we must pay for those commodities. But credits can be created as needed at minimal cost so all desirable trades can take place. To be sure, credit money has been abused. The banking monopoly has perverted it into usury-debt money. The answer is not to discard credit money, but to perfect it through the establishment of mutual credit networks and independent private and community currencies. This will not only liberate the exchange process but will help to knit a new social fabric to replace that which has been corroded by the dominant system. Read Riegel! His exposition of the nature of money and its workings is masterful. His philosophy was strongly libertarian (with a small "l"), and his proposed solutions are elegant. Regards, Tom ----- Original Message ----- From: jason@austinsilver.com To: Thomas H. Greco, Jr. ; Peter J Sullivan ; Tom O'Neill Cc: Bernard von NotHaus ; Dr. Larry Parks ; Dave Dobbins ; Mike Keesler ; Mike Aldana ; Dave Callahan ; Jan Blum ; Ralph Mastrangelo ; Ralph "Corky" Matson ; Thoren ; Russ Hicks ; Shakira Abdul-Ali ; Allen Aslan Heart ; John & Pat Harman ; Gerry Gouthro ; G. Edward Griffin ; Al Manduley ; Al Micesetti ; Marty Jezer ; Rick Nelson ; Barak ; Eric Kreig ; Kris Book ; Vida Dubinsky ; Christal Elane ; Ed Kolankowski ; Ron & Vicki Linker ; Sarah Bledsoe ; Pastor Mark McGrath ; Pastor Charles Spradlin ; Niamo Mu'id ; Nancy Schmidt Markstrom Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 10:34 PM Subject: Re: NORFED All I can say is, "Wow." Great work, Tom. Very well said, well-argued, and well-written. Can I post this (minus the names and e-mails) to the ALD-forum (newsgroup for the Liberty Dollar?) Jason P.S. - gold and silver are primitive like emotion, art, and sex are primitive. I believe they will always serve an important role in humanity's future. I would not want to imagine a world without those primitive necessities! ----- Original Message ----- From: Thomas H. Greco, Jr. To: Peter J Sullivan ; Tom O'Neill Cc: Bernard von NotHaus ; Dr. Larry Parks ; Jason Pratt ; Dave Dobbins ; Mike Keesler ; Mike Aldana ; Dave Callahan ; Jan Blum ; Ralph Mastrangelo ; Ralph "Corky" Matson ; Thoren ; Russ Hicks ; Shakira Abdul-Ali ; Allen Aslan Heart ; John & Pat Harman ; Gerry Gouthro ; G. Edward Griffin ; Al Manduley ; Al Micesetti ; Marty Jezer ; Rick Nelson ; Barak ; Eric Kreig ; Kris Book ; Vida Dubinsky ; Christal Elane ; Ed Kolankowski ; Ron & Vicki Linker ; Sarah Bledsoe ; Pastor Mark McGrath ; Pastor Charles Spradlin ; Niamo Mu'id ; Nancy Schmidt Markstrom Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 5:18 PM Subject: Re: NORFED To: Peter J. Sullivan From: Thomas H. Greco, Jr. Date: December 14, 2003 Dear Peter, In your message of today you said, "I need to understand what the underlying issues are that are preventing everyone seeking monetary reform from working together. Some are doing it in the non-profit arena, or are on a path toward introducing community currencies, but I hope we can find a way to build a synergy toward empowerment of the people." I would like to offer my views on that. First of all there are, on the one hand, those who are aiming at monetary reform, and, on the other, those who are seeking to transcend the dominant structures of money and banking. These two approaches are quite different from one another. The former accepts as given the socio-political foundations of the present regime and does not question its basic assumptions. The latter takes little for granted and seeks to reinvent money and banking to better serve their intended purposes; it is a more thoroughgoing, more "radical," approach that begins with a set of principles and ideals. Most of the reform attempts, for example, accept the dogma of statism as the dominant "religion," and believe the fallacy that the money power should rest solely in the hands of the state. A few would admit the possibility of supplementing state (or central bank) money with local community currencies, but fail to see the implications. As Beckerath says, "extension of exchange transactions without State money is in reality the beginning of a new system of settling accounts, indeed the beginning of a new economic order." I do not raise this point to further divide the "reformers" from the "transformers," but to show how they might be brought into alignment toward a common goal. If the fundamental goal is "empowerment of the people," then action needs to be taken on every level, and every opportunity must be exploited. If we can find a way to ramp up the pressure toward empowerment, then it will ooze into every available nook and cranny and expand into every opportunity that presents itself. Sometimes it will look like a step toward reform, and sometimes it will be a new, complementary approach to mediating exchange. There are many of us who have become aware that solving the money problem is fundamental to solving the other critical problems facing civilization, and have made it the central focus of our energies. I believe that those of us who are serious about making a contribution to solving it must first educate ourselves, learning everything we can about the principles of exchange and finance. Why were the Wright brothers successful in achieving manned flight when so many others had failed. It is because their approach was systematic. They learned all the could about the principles of flight by reading what others had already learned, by observing the phenomenon of flight in nature, and by experimenting with different possibilities that presented themselves. We must do the same. It is important to study the history of money and the theory of money, to observe how things work in nature, to study the systems that already exist, and to design our experiments to be unambiguous in their answers. What has and has not worked in the past? Who has proposed promising solutions that have not yet been adequately tested or demonstrated? How, where, and under what circumstances, can those proposed solutions be adapted to today's situation? My own inclination is toward "freedom approaches," with a particular focus on what can be done by associations of businesses, by grassroots organizations, and even by municipal and provincial governments. I do not wish to shift control of the money monopoly from one group to another; I seek ways to transcend the money monopoly. Thanks to some very brilliant thinkers who have preceded us, I think we now have an adequate understanding of the principles needed to design exchange mechanisms that are sound, effective, economical, and fair. And, thanks to the new computerized telecommunications technologies, we have the necessary tools and infrastructure to easily implement them. If the various approaches to solving the money problem are to be harmonized toward a common goal, we must at least have a common understanding about what money is. After 25 years of intensive research, it has only recently become clear to me that money has evolved through several different stages. We must make a clear distinction among the different kinds of money that have been used, and understand the characteristics and limitations of each. I wrote about this to some extent in an article that was published in NORFED's recent book, The Liberty Dollar Solution To the Federal Reserve. My article entitled, New Money for Health Communities, begins on page 306. The points I make in that article will be further elucidated in another book I expect to complete sometime next year. Everyone needs to understand that the progression in the chain of evolution of the exchange process from simple barter has been from commodity money, to symbolic money, to credit money, to credit clearing. In the meantime, I will soon post a power point presentation about this on my websites. For now, I wish to emphasize the point that commodity money, like gold and silver, while it may offer a partial solution if and when things become chaotic, remains a primitive medium of exchange. It can serve as a store-of-value, is useful for impersonal exchange transactions, and provides portability of wealth. But ultimately, our best security is in our relationships with each other. Mutual credit clearing will ultimately provide a much more efficient and effective mechanism for exchange, if we can achieve the necessary level of organization. And, this need not be limited to small local circles, but can proliferate into a federation that can span the globe. Earlier this year, we managed to assemble a team to establish a new website, www.reinventingmoney.com, dedicated to promoting freedom approaches to solving the money problem. More and more people are aiding in the effort and we are gradually compiling and making accessible the most insightful and promising materials available. I particularly recommend to everyone the writings of E. C. Riegel and Ulrich von Beckerath. Yes, there is a lot there to read, but start with Riegel's Flight From Inflation, and Beckerath's The Practical Realization of the Milhaud Proposals. Just these two will give you a better education in money and banking than you can get at any university. Tom Greco ----- Original Message ----- From: Peter J Sullivan To: Tom O'Neill Cc: Bernard von NotHaus ; Dr. Larry Parks ; Thomas H. Greco, Jr ; Jason Pratt ; Dave Dobbins ; Mike Keesler ; Mike Aldana ; Dave Callahan ; Jan Blum ; Ralph Mastrangelo ; Ralph "Corky" Matson ; Thoren ; Russ Hicks ; Shakira Abdul-Ali ; Allen Aslan Heart ; John & Pat Harman ; Gerry Gouthro ; G. Edward Griffin ; Al Manduley ; Al Micesetti ; Marty Jezer ; Rick Nelson ; Barak ; Eric Kreig ; Kris Book ; Vida Dubinsky ; Christal Elane ; Ed Kolankowski ; Ron & Vicki Linker ; Sarah Bledsoe ; Pastor Mark McGrath ; Pastor Charles Spradlin ; Niamo Mu'id ; Nancy Schmidt Markstrom Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2003 10:14 AM Subject: Re: NORFED Hello Tom: Am I glad to hear from you because I REALLY need assistance!!!! I visited your web site and am very impressed with your ChannelFuel Company. For example, I visited your link to the National Grocers Association. As I scrolled through this site, I saw the topic of "Competing against Supercenters and Mega Chains." This is exactly what we are trying to do through the Liberty Merchant program. The significant thing is that you, a very motivated individual for this cause, are on the "inside" and have a credibility with the stores and organizations we are trying to reach so as to introduce the Liberty Dollar into commerce. I have been trying to introduce the Liberty Dollar to our local merchants and to other friends and my family. One personal friend of mine has actually started a Chamber of Commerce, bringing two of the neighboring towns together for mutual cooperation. She has 150 members now. I approached her with the Liberty Dollar concept and her reaction was so negative and so strong that she forbade me to even bring up the subject again. She said I could use her members book and approach the merchants, but that I could not use her name or her recommendation for what I was doing. This was a significant blow to our friendship and our relationship that I'm struggling to find a way to deal with. On top of this my two sons, my wife, and my brother-in-law have also been very curt and closed minded to my even discussing these issues of monetary reform. With their backgrounds in computer programming, the telecom industry, and even as a bank consultant, their input and impact can be significant, needless to say. Besides this challenge of reaching my own family and friends in the local community, I am also connecting with significant players in the field of monetary reform. It seems that there are very real issues with Bernard's approach of introducing the Liberty Dollar to the marketplace. For example, I've spoken twice on the telephone to Dr. Larry Parks. Dr. Parks, as the Executive Director of the Foundation for the Advancement of Monetary Education, (FAME) has been fighting this good fight for thirty years, and still struggling to be heard and survive financially all the challenges involved. The other people are Thomas Greco and Mike Aldana. I know of Tom and Mike through another mutual friend, Dave Dobbins. I need to understand what the underlying issues are that are preventing everyone seeking monetary reform from working together. Some are doing it in the non-profit arena, or are on a path toward introducing community currencies, but I hope we can find a way to build a synergy toward empowerment of the people. My company name is The Healing Energy Network and that is the the role I hope to provide. Other people on this list have computer expertise and resources toward replicating web sites and are internet service providers. List servs through educational organizations is another area I want to explore as a way to develop our synergy as a working group. I am also working with individuals who are involved with the mortgage discharge process, another manifestation of the need for monetary reform. Tom, through many years of exploration and developing self-awareness I am seeking to understand what is my primary mission in life. Time is fleeting and I feel the urgency to find practical solutions to today's problems. My friend Allen, who has spent many years in studying history and has a grasp on getting to the fundamental issues and causes, sees monetary reform as the central focus of his energies. Through bringing all of us together through the internet, I hope and pray that we can be instrumental in helping to bring this about. Sincerely and kind regards to all, Peter J. Sullivan 201-967-9794 on 12/12/03 11:15 AM, Tom O'Neill at tom.oneill@channelfuel.com wrote: Hi Peter, Bernard von Nothaus from NORFED made me aware of your interest in monetary reform and I wanted to extend my contact information as the local Regional Circulation Office for the Liberty Dollar. Please feel free to call my direct line below if I can assist you in any way with your efforts. Kind regards, Tom O'Neill