From: "John Zube" To: References: <412001122231010330@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: Question re Your Web Site legal tender & lawful money Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2001 20:58:54 +1100 Organization: Libertarian Microfiche Publishing MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0008_01C07691.263C5EC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2314.1300 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C07691.263C5EC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Thomas Dobson, the question you put is not so much = one regarding my website but just regarding one term, "legal tender", as = opposed to the one which you seem to prefer: "lawful money". In my booklet on legal tender, appended to my literature list in my = website, I gave about 19 different definitions of legal tender. I am = certain that many more do exist. (To publish a comprehensive list, = pointing out the errors in each of the faulty wordings, is one of my = aims. Likewise, a full discussion of GRESHAM'S LAW and of TAX FOUNDATION = and of PAPER MONEY, and of EXCHANGE MEDIA & of VALUE STANDARDS.=20 All too many simply equate "legal tender" with "lawful money", not even = taking into consideration that e.g. cheques, although not legal tender, = are also a lawful means of payment and so is any form of clearing that = the authorities do permit. Nor are legally not permitted payments that = do satisfy payer and payee in any sensible and moral way "lawless" = payments. Any legal tender money is rather "lawless" money in the best meaning of = "law".=20 Nobody who tries to declare what is "lawful" money, has the right to = prescribe to dissenters what they are to consider among themselves as = their currency and their value standard. Freedom of choice for both, = regardless of what territorial constitutionalists and lawmakers consider = to be the ideal kind of currency and value standard. One can get the clearest insight on what constitutes money, currencies, = value standards, clearing, credit, debt, etc., if one considers a = situation, even if merely as a thought game, in which not a single law, = regulation, constitutional clause or juridical decision on such subjects = exists at all and all these facilities have to be developed by free = people, who do not want to go on with the "benefits" of monetary = despotism that have come upon them. I experienced two regimes, that legalized their oppression and = atrocities, so "lawful" is not excactlly a term that inspires me. Nor did I gain a great respect for the avalanches of laws, regulations = and administrative orders that democracies and republics, with more or = less free voting and expression and information, have passed over the 2 = centuries. As for the U.S. case: What you and the constitution meant to be the only = "lawful money" has been largely ignored or suppressed during and after = the American Revolution. In 1990 and 1991 I spent most of a year in the = U.S. and never saw "lawful money" in your meaning. All I saw was = examples of the imposition of monetary despotism, practised for all too = long, in spite of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and Supreme Court = decisions - or, BECAUSE of them! Even Washington was not without blame in this respect. He paid his = troops off only after sending them first into a distant wilderness or = place and then offered them only a depreciated paper money at a forced = value, foreseeing that in these places and in their conditions they = would then hardly mutiny against this abuse. But from his tenants he = demanded payment in gold, while he paid his debts in depreciated paper!=20 Where IS your lawful money? Only in some underground exchanges or = attempts to establish e-gold systems etc. I do not care whether some laws do nominally respect what you consider = to be the only "lawful" money. In practice, the overwhelming consent of = the lawmakers and interpreters has decided against it. Thus nothing less = but a monetary revolution will be required to get out from under = monetary despotism.=20 Such a revolution can be quite non-violently executed but it needs much = educational preparation. Towards this aim I published as much as I could on monetary freedom, = probably more than any other individual ever did before and will = continue to do so, although so far mainly only on microfiche.=20 Under full monetary freedom the adherents of metal commodity money will = get their chance, too. But they will have to be able to stand the = competition from other privately and cooperatively issued local and = other currencies that do not promise e.g. gold or silver metal = redemption but merely readiness to accept these notes, at par, for the = goods and services of the issuer and in all debts due to him. However, many of these issuers will denominate their notes and clearing = house certificates e.g. in gold or silver weight units, and price their = goods and services in such units, without promising more than acceptance = at par with the stated metal values for all their goods and services. Free choice in value standards will come to prevail, sooner or later, = despite the despotic inclinations of most money reformers. A gold clearing or gold-for-account currency is in theory and in = practice a much sounder currency than any that depends upon gold stocks = of the issuer and gold redemption obligations of them, combined with the = right of the note holders to demand gold redemption upon presentation of = their gold certificates.=20 The discussion on this has been going on for over 200 years and has not = yet been settled to general satisfaction. Popular errors and myths on = the subject, centuries old, still prevail, even among most of the = academic writings of libertarians during the last quarter of a century. = The monetary sectarians and church members still far outnumer the = genuine monetary scientists, even among the leading libertarian = economists! Under full monetary freedom, for gold value clearing notes and = certificates and accounts, rare metal redemption, to the extent that = holders desire it, will be referred to the free market in such metals. = Consequently, all the rare metals in the world will, potentially, act as = a "redemption fund".=20 One of the preconditions for enlightenment on monetary freedom options = will be an alphabetized handbook on its terms, theories, practices, = history and future potential. I have long wanted to compile such a = handbook, largely based on the teachings of the German School of = Monetary Freedom, but, unfortunately, even trying to popularize = something as simply as the freedom of expression and information = opportunities that microfiche do offer to freedom lovers, has taken most = of my time and energy during the last 23 years. Presently, I try, so far = still in vain, too, to interest enough libertarians in using CD-ROMs for = their writings, towards a complete freedom library and publishing = service. One CD-ROM, whose blank and pressing costs are down to 50 Australian = cents, can contain 300 to 2,000 libertarian books, zipped, and yet = libertarians have still left them largely unused, although a mere 300 of = these disks, or ca. 40 CVDs, could, perhaps, contain a complete freedom = library and probably no freedom lover would have time in his life to = read more than the contents of 10 such disks, which could be marketed = probably for as little as $ 5 - 50 each. This in spite of the fact that music, software and games lovers have = provided tenthousands, if not hundredthousands of CD-ROMs for = themselves. Libertarians have largely ignored their microfiche, their floppy disk = and also their CD-ROM publishing for what is supposedly their favourite = literature. Would they rather let the case for liberty be forfeited than resort to = such alternative media??? And do not try to tell me that the Internet, like God or father State, = will provide. I got active in promoting CD-ROMs, once again, after I experienced that = downloading from the Internet, to fill a single CD-ROM, would have cost = me 400 hours of hard and boring labour and ca. $ A 1,200 in connection = fees, while the burning of a single CD-ROM, on a simple home PC, IF the = text is already digitized for this on a HD, would take only all of 15 = minutes!=20 Here is one of the greatest educational opportunities for our times - = remaining largely unused. In about 45 days I have so far gained only 30 = people in favour of this idea. Hopefully, John Humphrey's new website on = a LIBERTARIAN LIBRARY, only just started, will speed the process up. It = links to two of my early papers on this subject. The list of interested = people these links contain is dated. www.geocities.com/libertarian_library/ Possibly all monetary freedom writings would fit onto a single CD-ROM or = two - production costs 50cents! - once the texts are digitized. And = monetary reformers, between them, should be able to manage to digitize = all such texts, with each participant concentrating on his favourite = ones, to the extent that he has access to them, indivision of labour = with others interested in the same texts.=20 What one person cannot tackle and complete on his own, the international = freedom movement people should be able to accomplish rather fast, once = they properly organize themselves and connect for this purpose, dividing = the labour involved. Then questions like yours will be settled more or less authoritatively, = sooner or later, in corresponding reference works.=20 Monetary freedom means PIOT in the monetary sphere: To each the exchange = medium and value standard of his or her dreams! PIOT, John Zube.=20 ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas Dobson=20 To: jzube@acenet.com.au=20 Sent: Wednesday, January 03, 2001 10:10 AM Subject: Question re Your Web Site Question- Lawful Money in the USA is Gold and Silver Coin. Which is = the stronger...Lawful Money or Legal Tender. That is the difficult = question. Title 12 U.S.Code defines Lawful Money as Silver and Gold. It = would seem that Lawful is the stronger word. Just speculating while = reading your web site. Best to You and Yours.=20 --- tjdri@earthlink.net --- EarthLink: It's your Internet. ------=_NextPart_000_0008_01C07691.263C5EC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Thomas Dobson,
          &nbs= p;            = ;          =20 the question you put is not so much one regarding my website but just = regarding=20 one term, "legal tender", as opposed to the one which you seem to = prefer:=20 "lawful money".
In my booklet on legal tender, appended to my = literature list=20 in my website, I gave about 19 different definitions of legal tender. I = am=20 certain that many more do exist. (To publish a comprehensive list, = pointing out=20 the errors in each of the faulty wordings, is one of my aims. Likewise, = a full=20 discussion of GRESHAM'S LAW and of TAX FOUNDATION and of PAPER MONEY, = and of=20 EXCHANGE MEDIA & of VALUE STANDARDS.
All too many simply equate "legal tender" with = "lawful money",=20 not even taking into consideration that e.g. cheques, although not legal = tender,=20 are also a lawful means of payment and so is any form of clearing that = the=20 authorities do permit. Nor are legally not permitted payments that do = satisfy=20 payer and payee in any sensible and moral way "lawless" = payments.
 
Any legal tender money is rather "lawless" money in = the best=20 meaning of "law".
 
Nobody who tries to declare what is "lawful" money, = has the=20 right to prescribe to dissenters what they are to consider among = themselves as=20 their currency and their value standard. Freedom of choice for both, = regardless=20 of what territorial constitutionalists and lawmakers consider to be the = ideal=20 kind of currency and value standard.
 
One can get the clearest insight on what constitutes = money,=20 currencies, value standards, clearing, credit, debt, etc., if one = considers a=20 situation, even if merely as a thought game, in which not a single law,=20 regulation, constitutional clause or juridical decision on such subjects = exists=20 at all and all these facilities have to be developed by free people, who = do not=20 want to go on with the "benefits" of monetary despotism that have come = upon=20 them.
 
I experienced two regimes, that legalized their = oppression and=20 atrocities, so "lawful" is not excactlly a term that inspires = me.
Nor did I gain a great respect for the avalanches of = laws,=20 regulations and administrative orders that democracies and republics, = with more=20 or less free voting and expression and information, have passed over the = 2=20 centuries.
 
As for the U.S. case: What you and the constitution = meant to=20 be the only "lawful money" has been largely ignored or suppressed = during=20 and after the American Revolution. In 1990 and 1991 I spent most of a = year in=20 the U.S. and never saw "lawful money" in your meaning. All I saw was = examples of=20 the imposition of monetary despotism, practised for all too long, in = spite of=20 the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and Supreme Court decisions - or, = BECAUSE=20 of them!
Even Washington was not without blame in this = respect. He paid=20 his troops off only after sending them first into a distant wilderness = or place=20 and then offered them only a depreciated paper money at a forced value,=20 foreseeing that in these places and in their conditions they would then = hardly=20 mutiny against this abuse. But from his tenants he demanded payment in = gold,=20 while he paid his debts in depreciated paper!
Where IS your lawful money? Only in some underground = exchanges=20 or attempts to establish e-gold systems etc.
 
I do not care whether some laws do nominally respect = what you=20 consider to be the only "lawful" money. In practice, the overwhelming = consent of=20 the lawmakers and interpreters has decided against it. Thus nothing less = but a=20 monetary revolution will be required to get out from under monetary = despotism.=20
Such a revolution can be quite non-violently = executed but it=20 needs much educational preparation.
Towards this aim I published as much as I could on = monetary=20 freedom, probably more than any other individual ever did before and = will=20 continue to do so, although so far mainly only on microfiche. =
 
Under full monetary freedom the adherents of metal = commodity=20 money will get their chance, too. But they will have to be able to stand = the=20 competition from other privately and cooperatively issued local and = other=20 currencies that do not promise e.g. gold or silver metal redemption but = merely=20 readiness to accept these notes, at par, for the goods and services of = the=20 issuer and in all debts due to him.
However, many of these issuers will denominate their = notes and=20 clearing house certificates e.g. in gold or silver weight units, and = price their=20 goods and services in such units, without promising more than acceptance = at par=20 with the stated metal values for all their goods and = services.
Free choice in value standards will come to prevail, = sooner or=20 later, despite the despotic inclinations of most money = reformers.
A gold clearing or gold-for-account currency is in = theory and=20 in practice a much sounder currency than any that depends upon gold = stocks of=20 the issuer and gold redemption obligations of them, combined with the = right of=20 the note holders to demand gold redemption upon presentation of their = gold=20 certificates.
The discussion on this has been going on for over = 200 years=20 and has not yet been settled to general satisfaction. Popular errors and = myths=20 on the subject, centuries old, still prevail, even among most of the = academic=20 writings of libertarians during the last quarter of a century. The = monetary=20 sectarians and church members still far outnumer the genuine monetary=20 scientists, even among the leading libertarian economists!
 
Under full monetary freedom, for gold value = clearing=20 notes and certificates and accounts, rare metal redemption, to the = extent=20 that holders desire it, will be referred to the free market in such = metals.=20 Consequently, all the rare metals in the world will, potentially, act as = a=20 "redemption fund".
 
One of the preconditions for enlightenment on = monetary freedom=20 options will be an alphabetized handbook on its terms, theories, = practices,=20 history and future potential. I have long wanted to compile such a = handbook,=20 largely based on the teachings of the German School of Monetary Freedom, = but,=20 unfortunately, even trying to popularize something as simply as the = freedom of=20 expression and information opportunities that microfiche do offer to = freedom=20 lovers, has taken most of my time and energy during the last 23 years.=20 Presently, I try, so far still in vain, too, to interest enough = libertarians in=20 using CD-ROMs for their writings, towards a complete freedom library and = publishing service.
 
One CD-ROM, whose blank and pressing costs are down = to 50=20 Australian cents, can contain 300 to 2,000 libertarian books, zipped, = and yet=20 libertarians have still left them largely unused, although a mere 300 of = these=20 disks, or ca. 40 CVDs, could, perhaps, contain a complete freedom = library=20 and probably no freedom lover would have time in his life to read more = than the=20 contents of 10 such disks, which could be marketed probably for as = little as $ 5=20 - 50 each.
This in spite of the fact that music, software and = games=20 lovers have provided tenthousands, if not hundredthousands of CD-ROMs = for=20 themselves.
Libertarians have largely ignored their microfiche, = their=20 floppy disk and also their CD-ROM publishing for what is supposedly = their=20 favourite literature.
Would they rather let the case for liberty be = forfeited than=20 resort to such alternative media???
 
And do not try to tell me that the Internet, like = God or=20 father State, will provide.
I got active in promoting CD-ROMs, once again, after = I=20 experienced that downloading from the Internet, to fill a single CD-ROM, = would=20 have cost me 400 hours of hard and boring labour and ca. $ A 1,200 in = connection=20 fees, while the burning of a single CD-ROM, on a simple home PC, IF the = text is=20 already digitized for this on a HD, would take only all of 15 minutes!=20
 
Here is one of the greatest educational = opportunities for our=20 times - remaining largely unused. In about 45 days I have so far gained = only 30=20 people in favour of this idea. Hopefully, John Humphrey's new website on = a=20 LIBERTARIAN LIBRARY, only just started, will speed the process up. It = links to=20 two of my early papers on this subject. The list of interested people = these=20 links contain is  dated.
www.geocities.com/= libertarian_library/
 
Possibly all monetary freedom writings would fit = onto a single=20 CD-ROM or two - production costs 50cents! - once the texts are = digitized. And=20 monetary reformers, between them, should be able to manage to digitize = all such=20 texts, with each participant concentrating on his favourite ones, to the = extent=20 that he has access to them, indivision of labour with others interested = in the=20 same texts.
What one person cannot tackle and complete on his = own, the=20 international freedom movement people should be able to accomplish = rather fast,=20 once they properly organize themselves and connect for this purpose, = dividing=20 the labour involved.
 
Then questions like yours will be settled more or = less=20 authoritatively, sooner or later, in corresponding reference works.=20
 
Monetary freedom means PIOT in the monetary sphere: = To each=20 the exchange medium and value standard of his or her=20 dreams!
 
PIOT, John Zube.
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas=20 Dobson
To: jzube@acenet.com.au
Sent: Wednesday, January 03, = 2001 10:10=20 AM
Subject: Question re Your Web = Site

Question- Lawful Money in the USA is Gold and Silver Coin. Which = is the=20 stronger...Lawful Money or Legal Tender. That is the difficult = question. Title=20 12 U.S.Code defines Lawful Money as Silver and Gold. It would seem = that Lawful=20 is the stronger word. Just speculating while reading your web site. = Best to=20 You and Yours.
 
 
--- tjdri@earthlink.net
--- EarthLink: It's your Internet.
 

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