From: "John Zube" To: "Klaus Falke" References: <000a01c28c25$20194200$01053dc0@Zentrale> Subject: 021115 Klaus Falke with my reply to the latest letter from T. Greco, as of possible interest to you. Date: Fri, 15 Nov 2002 21:06:26 +1100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0029_01C28CEA.DC890B80" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2600.0000 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2600.0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C28CEA.DC890B80 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Klaus Falke=20 To: J=F6rn Zube=20 Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 8:30 AM Subject: Re: 021113 Christian Butterbach, Falke ... Vielen Dank f=FCr das Ideenarchiv! Es ist richtig, ich bin an = Verrechnungssystemen interessiert. F=FCr den Absatzring wird Barter als = erg=E4nzendes Element zur Umsatzsteigerung sp=E4ter interessant. (Der = Absatzring ist kein Bartersystem sondern ein Absatzring.) Der aktuelle = Markt f=FCr Bartersystem ist in Europa schon ges=E4ttigt. (Und private = Tauschringe gibt es in der BRD schon fast in jedem Dorf.) In Deutschland = ist immer noch BCI der Markf=FChrer f=FCr den kommerziellen Bereich. Und = in der Schweiz sind Versuche gegen den Marktf=FChrer WIR gescheitert. = Ich bin seit 10 Jahren EKS(R) Stratege und nutze nur Markchancen! = (www.eks.de). Ferner halte ich mich an "The 22 Immutable Laws of = Marketing" von AL Ries & Jack Trout.=20 KLaus Falke sent me his Verwaltungsprogramm, for his version, but I = could not open it. Warum nicht? Bitte gebe exakt dies ein, ohne "blank" am Ende: Ein Freund der Freiheit meldet sich! Beste Gr=FC=DFe Klaus PS: Was macht Dein j=FCngster Sohn eigentlich? Ist er immer noch = etwas an PIOT interessiert? Er ist bei mir willkommen, wenn er mal eine = Europatour macht. Dear Klaus, kannst Du mir in ein paar Zahlen sagen was der = Unterschied ist zwischen einem computerisierten Absatzring, Tauschring und Bartersystem? =20 Mein Outlook Express 6, mit Windows 98, 2. Ausgabe, bringt mir fuer = Deinen Anhang nur=20 computer code. Mein Juengster, David, jetzt schon 39, ist immer not Aussteiger, der = malt, Drahtfiguren herstellt,=20 Material cycliert und sich von seiner Familie fast ganz getrennt hat. = Seine kuensterischen Sachen verkauft er von einer Decke auf dem = beruehmten Wochenende Markt Salamanca, in Hobart, Tasmania, wo er als = "D" bekannt ist, in ungewoehnlicher Tracht mit einem ihm eigenen = Wortspiel. Seine Einnahmen genuegten ihm in den letzten Jahren fuer 2 = Reisen nach Indien und Fiji. Ob er noch libertaere Ideen hat weiss ich nicht. Ich habe endlich auch das Interesse an ihm verloren. Dein Attachment konnte ich auch beim 2. Versuch nicht oeffnen. Ich = muesste erst eine Steganos Security Suite vom Netz abladen, sagt mir = mein Programm. Kannst Du die Akte nicht als Anhang einer e-mail beifuegen, = ausgedruckt? Wenn Du Dich fuer Panarchy interessierst, besuche mal www.panarchy.org Meine Panarchy Mikrofiche kommen jetzt schon auf 24 von der ON = PANARCHY Serie, dazu kommen noch einige Buchtitel. - Hoffentlich frueher = als spaeter kann ich auch viel von solchem Material auf einer CD-ROM = unterbringen.=20 PIOT, John. = =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Dear Thomas, all clearing exchanges of present values can, = by their very nature, like barter, be interest free and, electronically, = almost instantaneously and wider ranging that barter. =20 There is also a long tradition of not charging interest when payment = is made within 30 days. In some instances, even instalment credit is now = offered interest free, for the sale of large & expensive goods, e.g. = furniture, for 6 months up to 3 years. Whatever interest charges the = seller has to pay, to make that possible for him, are absorbed in his = price margin. Beyond that, the exchange of present goods for future goods cannot, I = believe, escape some form of interest charges, even when these are made = in other forms and using other terms. The term "interest" is just a = special name for special kinds of prices. This already suggests that in = a developed market zero pricing cannot be achieved, although it is = possible for mutual services within e.g. a family and friendship circle. = Under full freedom of exchange, even for capital, and security and = value preservation for it, freedom from taxes and regulations, capital = can become so abundant that for safe and long term investments it can = become very low, as it did, for many years, in Switzerland, with = mortgage rates down to 1 1/2 to 1 3/4 %. However, I have not objections against, no any interest in systems = that try to avoid interest charges altogether. My father and others = tried to do so e.g. via part of a low turnover charge upon trades = negotiated through their clearing system and then made available for = medium and long-term credits.=20 You have your mind fixed upon one and the supposedly best value = standard. Computerization would allow to offer customers of an = alternative and world-wide clearing system to reckon not just in one = value standard but in dozens of them, all freely chosen by the = participants and all market rated against each other. By your insistance upon the supposedly best, which it would be good = enough to simply recommend, as an option, you may lose many of your = potential customers, who are enamoured by other value standards. Why = deprive them of their loves? I hold that here, too, the customer is always right and it is up to = the businessman to please his customers, not to condition him to strict = and restrictive business conditions, that are intolerant towards major = "values" held by his customers.=20 It is like saying to all potential customers, whether they are = religious or not, you can only trade with me if you kiss my cross or my = signet ring, although either may be abhorrent to them. Clearing should be free - even in the choice of value standards, not = confined to one value standard only, which is not yet religiously, = economically, philosophically, mathematically, statistically or = psychologically upheld by all. Obviously, conversion of all participants = to it might cost more than the possible profits of the business.=20 Why go the road of the highest resistance rather than that of the = least resistance, with maximum customer satisfaction for the largest = number of customers? If your preferred value standard should turn out, in free competion = with other value standards, within your system, to be the best one - = then it will automatically and over a period be widely adopted by more = and more of your customers. What more can you rightly ask for?=20 You can be sure that any new international payment system will be = under very close scrutiny by many government agencies. Moreover, if access to it is also rather free, then you can be sure = that e.g. Mafia types, drug dealers, slave traders and terrorists will = also make use of it, under all kinds of cover-deals, which may mean that = governments will shut the sytem down. I would rather like to see local payment system freed and sound first = and freely spreading, under quite decentralized self-management, = establishing their own wider clearing circles, without central planning = initiating the largest possible clearing first. But, there is no accounting for tastes. PIOT, John ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas H. Greco, Jr.=20 To: Zube John ; Goldin Simon=20 Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 5:21 AM Subject: Fw: a no-interest global payment system using an = alternative "credit" card When I first sent this to you it came back. I'll try again. Tom ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Thomas H. Greco, Jr.=20 To: Peter Challen=20 Cc: Turmel John ; Etherden Peter ; DonnellyK ; Sabine McNeill ; = Kennedy Tom ; Theaker John ; DeMeulenaere Stephen ; Boudewijn Wegerif ; = Goldin Simon ; Pinshof Anton ; Zube John ; Schindel Cal ; Kent Deirdre ; = Lub Sergio ; Zink Harold=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:25 PM Subject: a no-interest global payment system using an alternative = "credit" card Dear Peter, et al, Some of my strongest thoughts of late have had to do with the = development of a no-interest global payment system using an alternative = "credit" card, and I know that many of you have been working along = similar lines.=20 I can imagine a great deal of energy and resources being applied to = such an approach within the Islamic world and among others, such as = anti-usury Christians and Jews, as well as many of those who have been = part of the money reform/transformation and community currency = movements.=20 I've been reviewing past messages pertinent to Islamic banking, = including those from Boudewijn and Deirdre, and I've visited the = following websites: www.islamicmint.com; www.e-gold.com; www.e-dinar.com.=20 There is some very interesting material there and it seems that the = Muslims are on their way. The presentation of Dr. Mahathir Bin Mohamad = to the Malaysia conference last June was particularly worth reading (see = it at www.islamicmint.com). Many of his thoughts resonate with my own, = and there is much in his proposed agenda that I think would be generally = beneficial.=20 Many of the Muslims favor reverting to precious metal currencies, = which, to my mind is an unnecessary limitation, however, they seem open = to using credit clearing systems using gold or silver units of measure, = which might be workable. The problem with gold is that the gold market = can be manipulated by large holders of gold, causing wide fluctuation in = its market value. Silver has a similar problem but it is much more = abundant so it is harder to manipulate In my previous message prior to the Bromsgrove gathering, I sent you = a list of my project priorities, which included this idea in brief and = rather vague form. I'm working up a more elaborate description of this = approach and wish to canvas it among those who might have the = motivation, resources, and political/economic clout to implement it. Who = do you think might fill that bill, and how might we get their attention? Here is the latest draft of my brief: An Interest-free Credit Card and Global Payment System Dee Hock, CEO emeritus of VISA International, in his book, "Birth of = the Chaordic Age," laments the fact that merchants and cardholders were = not also allowed membership in the "world's premier payment system," = only the issuing banks. I see a possibility to remedy that defect by = establishing a network of interest-free credit-clearing exchanges with = membership open to all and financed by charging fees for services = instead of interest.=20 This would be a global payment system using NO NATIONAL CURRENCY. = Instead, it would utilize a unit of account based upon an objective = concrete value standard. Such a standard could be easily defined and = published, and could provide a measure by which all existing currencies = could be evaluated. It would provide an accounting and pricing unit that = would be more stable and secure than any existing political currency = unit. This is the accounting unit that would be used in the clearing of = credits within this network of exchanges.=20 This kind of system would provide a less costly, more efficient, and = more equitable means of exchanging goods and services, operating in = parallel with, but independent of, the conventional banking system. Once = these benefits are demonstrated on a small scale, such systems could = rapidly proliferate. This approach is far more consistent than existing = financial practices with the values and beliefs of a large segment of = the world's population, specifically those who wish to avoid the = practice usury based on religious, ethical, or philosophical grounds. I = can see the possibility that it might emerge first in the Islamic world, = then be taken up by Christians and Jews, then spread more generally = throughout the global population. How did the Bromsgrove gathering go, and what were the outcomes? Best wishes, Tom ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C28CEA.DC890B80 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
 
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Klaus Falke
To: J=F6rn Zube
Sent: Friday, November 15, 2002 = 8:30=20 AM
Subject: Re: 021113 Christian = Butterbach,=20 Falke ...

Vielen Dank f=FCr das = Ideenarchiv!=20 Es ist richtig, ich bin an Verrechnungssystemen=20 interessiert. F=FCr den Absatzring wird Barter als erg=E4nzendes = Element zur=20 Umsatzsteigerung sp=E4ter interessant. (Der = Absatzring ist kein=20 Bartersystem sondern ein Absatzring.) Der = aktuelle=20 Markt f=FCr Bartersystem ist in Europa schon ges=E4ttigt. (Und private = Tauschringe=20 gibt es in der BRD schon fast in jedem Dorf.) In Deutschland ist = immer=20 noch BCI der Markf=FChrer f=FCr den kommerziellen Bereich. Und in der=20 Schweiz sind Versuche gegen den Marktf=FChrer WIR gescheitert. = Ich bin seit=20 10 Jahren EKS(R) Stratege und nutze nur = Markchancen! (www.eks.de). Ferner halte = ich mich=20 an "The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing" von AL Ries & = Jack=20 Trout. 
 
KLaus = Falke sent me his=20 Verwaltungsprogramm, for his version, but I could not open=20 it.
 
Warum nicht? Bitte gebe = exakt=20 dies ein, ohne "blank" am Ende:
 
Ein Freund der Freiheit meldet = sich!
 
Beste Gr=FC=DFe
 
Klaus
 
PS:    Was macht Dein = j=FCngster Sohn=20 eigentlich? Ist er immer noch etwas an PIOT interessiert? Er ist bei = mir=20 willkommen, wenn er mal eine Europatour macht.
 
Dear Klaus,
          &nbs= p;          =20 kannst Du mir in ein paar Zahlen sagen was der Unterschied ist = zwischen=20 einem computerisierten
Absatzring,
Tauschring und
Bartersystem?        &nb= sp;          =20
 
Mein Outlook Express 6, mit Windows 98, 2. = Ausgabe, bringt=20 mir fuer Deinen Anhang nur
computer code.
 
Mein Juengster, David, jetzt schon 39, ist immer = not=20 Aussteiger, der malt, Drahtfiguren herstellt,
Material cycliert und sich von seiner Familie fast = ganz=20 getrennt hat. Seine kuensterischen Sachen verkauft er von einer Decke = auf dem=20 beruehmten Wochenende Markt Salamanca, in Hobart, Tasmania, wo er als = "D"=20 bekannt ist, in ungewoehnlicher Tracht mit einem ihm eigenen=20 Wortspiel. Seine Einnahmen genuegten ihm in den letzten Jahren = fuer 2=20 Reisen nach Indien und Fiji.
 
Ob er noch libertaere Ideen hat weiss ich=20 nicht.
Ich habe endlich auch das Interesse an ihm=20 verloren.
 
Dein Attachment konnte ich auch beim 2. Versuch = nicht=20 oeffnen. Ich muesste erst eine Steganos Security Suite vom Netz = abladen, sagt=20 mir mein Programm.
 
Kannst Du die Akte nicht als Anhang einer e-mail = beifuegen,=20 ausgedruckt?
 
Wenn Du Dich fuer Panarchy interessierst, besuche = mal www.panarchy.org
 
Meine Panarchy Mikrofiche kommen jetzt schon auf = 24 von der=20 ON PANARCHY Serie, dazu kommen noch einige Buchtitel. - Hoffentlich = frueher=20 als spaeter kann ich auch viel von solchem Material auf einer CD-ROM=20 unterbringen.
 
PIOT, John.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D
Dear Thomas,
=
           &n= bsp;           &nb= sp;=20 all clearing exchanges of present values can, by their very nature, = like=20 barter, be interest free and, electronically, almost instantaneously = and wider=20 ranging that barter. 
There is also a long tradition of not charging interest when = payment is=20 made within 30 days. In some instances, even instalment credit is now = offered=20 interest free, for the sale of large & expensive goods, e.g.=20 furniture, for 6 months up to 3 years. Whatever interest charges = the=20 seller has to pay, to make that possible for him, are absorbed in his = price=20 margin.
Beyond that, the exchange of present goods for future goods = cannot, I=20 believe, escape some form of interest charges, even when these are = made in=20 other forms and using other terms. The term "interest" is just a = special name=20 for special kinds of prices. This already suggests that in a = developed=20 market zero pricing cannot be achieved, although it is possible for = mutual=20 services within e.g. a family and friendship circle. 
 
Under full freedom of exchange, even for capital, and security = and value=20 preservation for it, freedom from taxes and regulations, capital can = become so=20 abundant that for safe and long term investments it can become very = low, as it=20 did, for many years, in Switzerland, with mortgage rates down to 1 1/2 = to 1=20 3/4 %.
 
However, I have not objections against, no any interest in = systems that=20 try to avoid interest charges altogether. My father and others tried = to do so=20 e.g. via part of a low turnover charge upon trades negotiated through = their=20 clearing system and then made available for medium and long-term = credits.=20
 
You have your mind fixed upon one and the supposedly best value = standard.=20 Computerization would allow to offer customers of an alternative and=20 world-wide clearing system to reckon not just in one value standard = but in=20 dozens of them, all freely chosen by the participants and all market = rated=20 against each other.
 
By your insistance upon the supposedly best, which it would be = good=20 enough to simply recommend, as an option, you may lose many of your = potential=20 customers, who are enamoured by other value standards. Why deprive = them of=20 their loves?
I hold that here, too, the customer is always right and it is up = to the=20 businessman to please his customers, not to condition him to strict = and=20 restrictive business conditions, that are intolerant towards major = "values"=20 held by his customers.
It is like saying to all potential customers, whether they are = religious=20 or not, you can only trade with me if you kiss my cross or my signet = ring,=20 although either may be abhorrent to them.
 
Clearing should be free - even in the choice of value standards, = not=20 confined to one value standard only, which is not yet religiously,=20 economically, philosophically, mathematically, statistically or=20 psychologically upheld by all. Obviously, conversion of all = participants to it=20 might cost more than the possible profits of the business.
Why go the road of the highest resistance rather than that of the = least=20 resistance, with maximum customer satisfaction for the largest number = of=20 customers?
 
If your preferred value standard should turn out, in free = competion with=20 other value standards, within your system, to be the best one - then = it will=20 automatically and over a period be widely adopted by more and more of = your=20 customers. What more can you rightly ask for?
 
You can be sure that any new international payment system will be = under=20 very close scrutiny by many government agencies.
Moreover, if access to it is also rather free, then you can be = sure that=20 e.g. Mafia types, drug dealers, slave traders and terrorists will = also=20 make use of it, under all kinds of cover-deals, which may mean that=20 governments will shut the sytem down.
 
I would rather like to see local payment system freed and sound = first and=20 freely spreading, under quite decentralized self-management, = establishing=20 their own wider clearing circles, without central planning initiating = the=20 largest possible clearing first.
 
But, there is no accounting for tastes.
 
PIOT, John
----- Original Message -----
From:=20 Thomas H.=20 Greco, Jr.
To: Zube John ; Goldin Simon
Sent: Friday, November 15, = 2002 5:21=20 AM
Subject: Fw: a no-interest = global=20 payment system using an alternative "credit" card

When I first sent this to you = it came=20 back. I'll try again.
Tom
 
----- Original Message -----=20
From: = Thomas H.=20 Greco, Jr.
Cc: Turmel=20 John ; Etherden Peter ; DonnellyK ; Sabine=20 McNeill ; Kennedy Tom ; Theaker John ; DeMeulenaere Stephen ; Boudewijn Wegerif ; Goldin Simon=20 ; Pinshof Anton ; Zube = John ;=20 Schindel Cal ; Kent=20 Deirdre ; Lub Sergio ; Zink Harold
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 4:25 PM
Subject: a no-interest global payment system using an=20 alternative "credit" card

Dear Peter, et al,
 
Some of my strongest thoughts of late = have had to=20 do with the development of a no-interest global payment system using = an=20 alternative "credit" card, and I know that many of you have been = working=20 along similar lines.
 
I can imagine a great deal of energy and = resources=20 being applied to such an approach within the Islamic world and among = others,=20 such as anti-usury Christians and Jews, as well as many of = those who=20 have been part of the money reform/transformation and community = currency=20 movements.
 
I've been reviewing past messages pertinent = to Islamic=20 banking, including those from Boudewijn and Deirdre, and I've = visited the=20 following websites:
www.islamicmint.com; www.e-gold.com; www.e-dinar.com.
There is some very interesting material = there and it=20 seems that the Muslims are on their way. The presentation of Dr. = Mahathir=20 Bin Mohamad to the Malaysia conference last June was particularly = worth=20 reading (see it at www.islamicmint.com). Many = of his=20 thoughts resonate with my own, and there is much in his proposed = agenda that=20 I think would be generally beneficial.
 
Many of the Muslims favor reverting to = precious metal=20 currencies, which, to my mind is an unnecessary limitation, however, = they=20 seem open to using credit clearing systems using gold or silver = units of=20 measure, which might be workable. The problem with gold is that the = gold=20 market can be manipulated by large holders of gold, causing wide = fluctuation=20 in its market value. Silver has a similar problem but it is much = more=20 abundant so it is harder to manipulate
 
In my previous message prior to the = Bromsgrove=20 gathering, I sent you a list of my project priorities, which = included this=20 idea in brief and rather vague form. I'm working up a more elaborate = description of this approach and wish to canvas it among those who = might=20 have the motivation, resources, and political/economic clout to = implement=20 it. Who do you think might fill that bill, and how might we get = their=20 attention?
 
Here is the latest draft of my = brief:

An Interest-free Credit Card and Global Payment System

Dee Hock, CEO emeritus of VISA International, in his book, "Birth = of the=20 Chaordic Age," laments the fact that merchants and cardholders were = not also=20 allowed membership in the "world's premier payment system," only the = issuing=20 banks. I see a possibility to remedy that defect by establishing a = network=20 of interest-free credit-clearing exchanges with membership open to = all and=20 financed by charging fees for services instead of interest.

This would be a global payment system using NO NATIONAL CURRENCY. = Instead, it would utilize a unit of account based upon an objective = concrete=20 value standard. Such a standard could be easily defined and = published, and=20 could provide a measure by which all existing currencies could be = evaluated.=20 It would provide an accounting and pricing unit that would be more = stable=20 and secure than any existing political currency unit. This is the = accounting=20 unit that would be used in the clearing of credits within this = network of=20 exchanges.

This kind of system would provide a less costly, more efficient, = and more=20 equitable means of exchanging goods and services, operating in = parallel=20 with, but independent of, the conventional banking system. Once = these=20 benefits are demonstrated on a small scale, such systems could = rapidly=20 proliferate. This approach is far more consistent than existing = financial=20 practices with the values and beliefs of a large segment of the = world's=20 population, specifically those who wish to avoid the practice usury = based on=20 religious, ethical, or philosophical grounds. I can see the = possibility that=20 it might emerge first in the Islamic world, then be taken up by = Christians=20 and Jews, then spread more generally throughout the global=20 population.

How did the Bromsgrove gathering go, and = what were the=20 outcomes?
Best wishes,
Tom
 
= ------=_NextPart_000_0029_01C28CEA.DC890B80--